Man sieht: Es geht eben nichts ueber eine theologische Ausbildung.Auf der anderen Seite des Grossen Teichs
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GG001
"Shaquille" freut sich im NACboard ueber eine Aktion der Gemeinde Trappenkamp. Ein schoener Anlass, sich mit zu freuen, wie ich meine.
Soupkitchen
Hats off to the folks who had the inclination and drive to make this happen. The traditional NAC view of charitable work is to assist other NACs, rather than reach out to the community at large. To open the doors and address a need in the community without direct ties to the church or as a public relations event is a very positive step.
Congregations need to be more active within their communities. And it need not be a totally self-generated and self-supported effort as described above. Local congregations can come along side other churches and relief organizations to support their projects. Congregations can support financially and through volunteer time shelters and soup kitchens operated by other organizations. Rather than reinventing the wheel, NAC volunteers can join with other volunteers to further humanitarian projects already in place. Not only will this put volunteer time directly into productive service, it will expose cloistered NACs to the needs of the community and support organizations already in place to meet those needs.
Soupkitchen
Hats off to the folks who had the inclination and drive to make this happen. The traditional NAC view of charitable work is to assist other NACs, rather than reach out to the community at large. To open the doors and address a need in the community without direct ties to the church or as a public relations event is a very positive step.
Congregations need to be more active within their communities. And it need not be a totally self-generated and self-supported effort as described above. Local congregations can come along side other churches and relief organizations to support their projects. Congregations can support financially and through volunteer time shelters and soup kitchens operated by other organizations. Rather than reinventing the wheel, NAC volunteers can join with other volunteers to further humanitarian projects already in place. Not only will this put volunteer time directly into productive service, it will expose cloistered NACs to the needs of the community and support organizations already in place to meet those needs.
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GG001
"Son of Evangelist" ueber das neue Gesangbuch im englischsprachigen Raum im NACboard:
SoE hat das neue deutsche Gemeinde-GB noch nicht gesehen.
uhhhhhhhh....image, where i came from, it was frustrating just trying to infuse some variety into the amount of "tunes known to the congregation and choir." the potential of the traditional "blue" congregational hymnal and the "red" choir book were never fully explored. the best i could manage was to perhaps play the version of music in let's say, in the german congregational organ copy book..., which had slight differences in harmony which added a "little" pizazz..., the german book also had the nice feature of placing the entire song in such a way that you wouldn't have to "flip" pages in mid song. (just the kind of excellent planning you'd expect from the dearly beloved "uber-menschen" who bilt zee church... image , and i say that with the greatest respect and admiration for the germans.... image ) i recall the NAC-USA came out with an organ copy some time later with similar features... (just like americans have just recently figured out how to make a decent looking car with reasonable fuel economy, performance, and handling while the germans mastered that decades ago!Oh well! We will probably just keep singing the remaining "oldies but goodies"
SoE hat das neue deutsche Gemeinde-GB noch nicht gesehen.
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GG001
You got that right....
I know members now that are so tied to the church they stay with the NAC though they have but a handful of members, the most rudementary children's program, no bible study, no outreach, no real national support, and no community involvement. These are souls that would be far better off if they had been taught that there is no one way to worship God, no one church that speaks for Him, no one leader who is the foremost expression of God's will on earth. These are people being spiritually deprived of the joy of a full fellowship in Christian community because they have committed to the concept preached to them their entire lives of the absolute necessity of apostle-based salvation.
The failure to recognize the spiritual viablity of other churches also serves as a further barrier to bringing in new souls. What rational seeking soul will accept the notion of NAC as the only means to salvation after seeing its declining membership, crumbling buildings, and lack of coherent leadership? Whatever credibility might come from a passoinate servant in tune with the Spirit who truly preaches a sermon about Christ is destroyed by the archaic teachings of "correct" church and absolute need for apostles.
While it may seem counterintuitive to NAC decision-makers, in the long run the church would be better off to recognize (and preach) that there is no one true church. It could then come into the Christian community and join as another voice for Christ, rather than function in total isolation. This would open its doors to greater tolerance of ideas, and allow congregations to be more responsive to the needs of its members.
"Shaquille" im NACboard
Bemerkung: die Vorschlaege fuer "modern congregations" stammen aus einer progressiven Gemeinde in den U.S.A. Eine Liste der Ideen von damals ist vielleicht noch im glaubenskultur Forum. Der Verfahrensweg war wie ueblich:
- Begeisterung
- ergebnisloses Warten
- Ernuechterung
- die Ideen kommen aus anderer Richtung wieder zum Vorschein
Exactly. There is much talk about the 'modern congregation' concept in the NAC. And indeed, components of the plan are good. Actually they should be--the MC concept stole many of the ideas from early progressive-minded folks who proposed these changes 10 years ago. But engage in all the reforms you wish, until the mindset changes that there is but one "correct" church, the NAC will simply be unable to function as a healthy member of the Christian community.olderandwisertwo wrote:
As a personal experience, when my family left the NAC, we spent about a year looking for the "correct" church. And guess what? -- there is none. We are now content in a community of like-minded Christian believers who worship, grow and serve the Lord.
I know members now that are so tied to the church they stay with the NAC though they have but a handful of members, the most rudementary children's program, no bible study, no outreach, no real national support, and no community involvement. These are souls that would be far better off if they had been taught that there is no one way to worship God, no one church that speaks for Him, no one leader who is the foremost expression of God's will on earth. These are people being spiritually deprived of the joy of a full fellowship in Christian community because they have committed to the concept preached to them their entire lives of the absolute necessity of apostle-based salvation.
The failure to recognize the spiritual viablity of other churches also serves as a further barrier to bringing in new souls. What rational seeking soul will accept the notion of NAC as the only means to salvation after seeing its declining membership, crumbling buildings, and lack of coherent leadership? Whatever credibility might come from a passoinate servant in tune with the Spirit who truly preaches a sermon about Christ is destroyed by the archaic teachings of "correct" church and absolute need for apostles.
While it may seem counterintuitive to NAC decision-makers, in the long run the church would be better off to recognize (and preach) that there is no one true church. It could then come into the Christian community and join as another voice for Christ, rather than function in total isolation. This would open its doors to greater tolerance of ideas, and allow congregations to be more responsive to the needs of its members.
"Shaquille" im NACboard
Bemerkung: die Vorschlaege fuer "modern congregations" stammen aus einer progressiven Gemeinde in den U.S.A. Eine Liste der Ideen von damals ist vielleicht noch im glaubenskultur Forum. Der Verfahrensweg war wie ueblich:
- Begeisterung
- ergebnisloses Warten
- Ernuechterung
- die Ideen kommen aus anderer Richtung wieder zum Vorschein
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GG001
Vorschlag fuer ein Treffen in den U.S.A. oder CDN
NACBoard Convention North/Canada
Some of the topics of discussion on various websites have opened many eyes to the improvements that are necessary in order for the New Apostolic Church to survive. These improvements include changes to the level that many could actually refer to as reform.
Under its present hierarchical leadership the NAC will not allow reform to take place to the degree that is presently being discussed by its progressive members. Some of these progressives have been in former positions of leadership in the NAC and many others are being silenced due to their outspoken actions.
Implementation of necessary reforms will require the cooperation of the NAC membership majority but obstacles exist in recruiting those hearts and souls. This will require tenacity, love and enthusiasm on the part of well-rooted congregational reformers and their sympathizers. It will be the goal of this convention to focus on winning strategies that will impact the guests/members by allowing them to question, reflect and review the direction that the NAC is presently steering them.
An outline of proposed seminars and clinics for the convention are listed below and depending on the degree of interest will be scheduled for a 2-3 day event. Presently no date as been set for this event and is also tentative depending on interest demonstrated by NACBoard members however it will also be open to non NACBoard members that wish to participate.
Sowing reform:
Planting seeds to create a harvest.
Change is something that requires numbers and if more members take to the field the greater the harvest. Here participants will learn of ways to win sympathizers by subtly infusing members and guests with historical and pragmatic information in order to raise questions
Implementing change from within:
It's obvious that NAC programs now in place are having little or no effect on growth and immediate drastic measures are necessary.
Here participants can master covert means that can impact guests and members in order to rouse their voices.
Testing Officiants:
After service questions for the ministers.
Often those that hold services make exclusive statements about the NAC and its position as being the and only church of God. Here participants can share ways in encouraging members and guests to feel free in asking questions immediately after service, as it is fresh in both minds.
Salvation through God and Christ:
But can it be done without Apostles?
Here participants will be presented with affirmative action strategy based on scriptural truth in allaying NAC salvation claims.
Bringing Christ back:
Many members long for Christ without constant Apostle haunting.
New Apostolic publications and sermons tend to be dominant with Apostles in the forefront of programs and works without giving enough credence to Jesus Christ and membership support. Here participants will explore options that they can explain to members and guests how to prioritize Christ and place NAC leadership roles in their true perspective.
The NAC doctrine of decline:
Controversial points of doctrine (day of departed, sealing) in the NAC have created many scriptural arguments based on their unsoundness and have made many members question their necessity.
Here participants will discuss ways on emphasizing to guests and members the significance of these events as an addendum to church tradition and not necessarily a tying component of salvation.
NAC history 101:
Points of history from doctrinal beginnings 1826 to the effects of the Botschaft 1960
Here participants will go over a brief synopsis of NAC history that they can share with guests and members as well as directing them to sources that go into more depth on the subject.
The NAC oneness myth:
Contrary to common belief, the NAC District Apostle are not always in oneness with each other or the Chief Apostle.
Here participants will be directed in ways to point guests and members towards proof recently documented by NAKI in house historian Walter Drave. Although not accurate in its content, participants will draw comparisons to similar events presently taking place in other congregations worldwide and locally.
No is just no:
Saying No to NAC leaders is not necessarily saying no to God.
In this discussion participants will share their experiences on the negative effects of personal priorities as it applied to future congregational activities. Here participants will address solutions of these effects by understanding the dynamics of working with certain members in the congregation that are always aspiring or at the center of many activities.
Serving and sacrificing:
Helping in you own way.
Here participants can learn how to educate guests and members in creating and accepting a wider berth of works to attain blessings other than those that the NAC are confined too.
Facing the decline of the NAC:
Attending NAC services in the future.
Whether it is budget, relocation, indifference, member demise, sustainability or a host of other issues, the NAC in western countries are closing at an alarming rate and the question of a future place of worship is prevalent in many members minds. Here participants can discuss ways to seek solutions that will prepare themselves and other members by sharing experiences they have had with other churches and spiritual outlets
Casual optional:
Tour of balls falls and local vineyards (if convention takes place in Niagara area)
Alternate:
Visit to CAC building in Kingston (if convention takes place in Denbigh)
Alternate:
Visiting growing Christian churches in the area. Witnessing the success of modern congregations that actually use modern thinking.
Input is welcome ...with 1-4-5
Aus dem NACboard
Some of the topics of discussion on various websites have opened many eyes to the improvements that are necessary in order for the New Apostolic Church to survive. These improvements include changes to the level that many could actually refer to as reform.
Under its present hierarchical leadership the NAC will not allow reform to take place to the degree that is presently being discussed by its progressive members. Some of these progressives have been in former positions of leadership in the NAC and many others are being silenced due to their outspoken actions.
Implementation of necessary reforms will require the cooperation of the NAC membership majority but obstacles exist in recruiting those hearts and souls. This will require tenacity, love and enthusiasm on the part of well-rooted congregational reformers and their sympathizers. It will be the goal of this convention to focus on winning strategies that will impact the guests/members by allowing them to question, reflect and review the direction that the NAC is presently steering them.
An outline of proposed seminars and clinics for the convention are listed below and depending on the degree of interest will be scheduled for a 2-3 day event. Presently no date as been set for this event and is also tentative depending on interest demonstrated by NACBoard members however it will also be open to non NACBoard members that wish to participate.
Sowing reform:
Planting seeds to create a harvest.
Change is something that requires numbers and if more members take to the field the greater the harvest. Here participants will learn of ways to win sympathizers by subtly infusing members and guests with historical and pragmatic information in order to raise questions
Implementing change from within:
It's obvious that NAC programs now in place are having little or no effect on growth and immediate drastic measures are necessary.
Here participants can master covert means that can impact guests and members in order to rouse their voices.
Testing Officiants:
After service questions for the ministers.
Often those that hold services make exclusive statements about the NAC and its position as being the and only church of God. Here participants can share ways in encouraging members and guests to feel free in asking questions immediately after service, as it is fresh in both minds.
Salvation through God and Christ:
But can it be done without Apostles?
Here participants will be presented with affirmative action strategy based on scriptural truth in allaying NAC salvation claims.
Bringing Christ back:
Many members long for Christ without constant Apostle haunting.
New Apostolic publications and sermons tend to be dominant with Apostles in the forefront of programs and works without giving enough credence to Jesus Christ and membership support. Here participants will explore options that they can explain to members and guests how to prioritize Christ and place NAC leadership roles in their true perspective.
The NAC doctrine of decline:
Controversial points of doctrine (day of departed, sealing) in the NAC have created many scriptural arguments based on their unsoundness and have made many members question their necessity.
Here participants will discuss ways on emphasizing to guests and members the significance of these events as an addendum to church tradition and not necessarily a tying component of salvation.
NAC history 101:
Points of history from doctrinal beginnings 1826 to the effects of the Botschaft 1960
Here participants will go over a brief synopsis of NAC history that they can share with guests and members as well as directing them to sources that go into more depth on the subject.
The NAC oneness myth:
Contrary to common belief, the NAC District Apostle are not always in oneness with each other or the Chief Apostle.
Here participants will be directed in ways to point guests and members towards proof recently documented by NAKI in house historian Walter Drave. Although not accurate in its content, participants will draw comparisons to similar events presently taking place in other congregations worldwide and locally.
No is just no:
Saying No to NAC leaders is not necessarily saying no to God.
In this discussion participants will share their experiences on the negative effects of personal priorities as it applied to future congregational activities. Here participants will address solutions of these effects by understanding the dynamics of working with certain members in the congregation that are always aspiring or at the center of many activities.
Serving and sacrificing:
Helping in you own way.
Here participants can learn how to educate guests and members in creating and accepting a wider berth of works to attain blessings other than those that the NAC are confined too.
Facing the decline of the NAC:
Attending NAC services in the future.
Whether it is budget, relocation, indifference, member demise, sustainability or a host of other issues, the NAC in western countries are closing at an alarming rate and the question of a future place of worship is prevalent in many members minds. Here participants can discuss ways to seek solutions that will prepare themselves and other members by sharing experiences they have had with other churches and spiritual outlets
Casual optional:
Tour of balls falls and local vineyards (if convention takes place in Niagara area)
Alternate:
Visit to CAC building in Kingston (if convention takes place in Denbigh)
Alternate:
Visiting growing Christian churches in the area. Witnessing the success of modern congregations that actually use modern thinking.
Input is welcome ...with 1-4-5
Aus dem NACboard
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GG001
Fettdruck von mir, GG001.Bishop Bartholomew Antwi-Kyeremeh of the Kumasi Apostle District of the New Apostolic Church was interviewed for the Accra Daily Mail in Ghana. This is part of a district in Germany not to be confused with any Canadian District in Ghana.
"He condemns programmes on FM radio stations that promote sexual escapades, saying they encouraged moral decadence among the youth". He told the Ghana News Agency in an interview that the youth openly discussed such programmes and would try to experiment with such sexual practices.
"One of such programmes dubbed "Odo Ahoma So" is broadcast on Adom FM station at Tema between 2200 hours and 2400 hours every Wednesday and is fraught with profane language and only encourages people to engage in illicit sex", he said.
Bishop Antwi-kyeremah noted that the programme would incense any active person to have the desire to go in for sex, thus increasing cases of defilement, rape and sodomy in the communities.
He said the Ghana AIDS Commission was spending huge resources to control the spread of HIV/AIDS and nothing negative should be allowed to promote illicit sex among the youth and unmarried people.
Bishop Antwi-kyeremah called on his colleagues to use the pulpit to preach against the viewing of pornographic films or listening to programmes that promoted sex among the people, especially the youth.
He urged the National Media Commission to monitor the activities and programmes of FM stations and offer them the necessary advice to help promote national development.
Very political for a NAC, we don't see any NAC's AB's interviewed in North America, unless I'm missing something...
Aus dem NACboard
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GG001
BatP: Feast of Pentecost
This "magnificent" feast of Pentecost is nothing more than another complete letdown; a melodramatic production of little more than some fairly well done music. I am so disappointed. I have hungered for decades for meat and been served, again, nothing but angel food cake. Now I am gaunt and angry. Give me back my life, my dignity, my youth and my money! I have begged for teaching and you gave me dogma. I have begged for inclusion and you gave me superficiality. I have pleaded for experience of faith and you gave me silence. I have calloused knees and, now, a calloused heart. Read the transcript of this service and the last several CA services. They are empty cheerleading. I have a wonderful family and a wonderful wife, so I can do nothing but vent in this forum. I reject revealed religion in my heart. Present scripture or apologetic arguments if you will. It is all mythology.
LACNAC: Fast Food of Pentecost
I am not going to offer any apologetics or scripture to you. I think this service, along with so any other transmission services, offer significant justification for doing away with transmission services and large scale services in general. The problem lies in that when you have such a broad audience, you end up having to hold a completely generic service that comes across devoid of much spiritual substance or depth. Much more depth (usually) comes out of smaller scale services where the message is more directed at the "needs" of a more defined group.
Aus dem NACboard
This "magnificent" feast of Pentecost is nothing more than another complete letdown; a melodramatic production of little more than some fairly well done music. I am so disappointed. I have hungered for decades for meat and been served, again, nothing but angel food cake. Now I am gaunt and angry. Give me back my life, my dignity, my youth and my money! I have begged for teaching and you gave me dogma. I have begged for inclusion and you gave me superficiality. I have pleaded for experience of faith and you gave me silence. I have calloused knees and, now, a calloused heart. Read the transcript of this service and the last several CA services. They are empty cheerleading. I have a wonderful family and a wonderful wife, so I can do nothing but vent in this forum. I reject revealed religion in my heart. Present scripture or apologetic arguments if you will. It is all mythology.
LACNAC: Fast Food of Pentecost
I am not going to offer any apologetics or scripture to you. I think this service, along with so any other transmission services, offer significant justification for doing away with transmission services and large scale services in general. The problem lies in that when you have such a broad audience, you end up having to hold a completely generic service that comes across devoid of much spiritual substance or depth. Much more depth (usually) comes out of smaller scale services where the message is more directed at the "needs" of a more defined group.
Aus dem NACboard
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GG001
"Trike Troll" im NACboard hat ein Treffen vorgeschlagen und eine Liste von Diskussionsthemen vorgeschlagen. "Knot Lost" bringt dazu das Schreiben eines Apostels (Fettdruck, Unterstreichungen usw. wie im NACboard). Der Themenvorschlag und die Frage, die "Knot Lost" am Ende stellt, sind auch interessant.
Wer hat den sogenannten Gottesdienst vom 26. Nov. 2006 in Osnabrueck wieder erkannt?After reading the quote from the CA on Pentecost, (thanks Mr. Schindos) maybe one of the discussions should be about the New Apostolic understanding of the Gospel. I received an e-mail about a year and a half ago (Jan '07) regarding the CA discussing the Gospel. This was sent, not to me, but forwarded to me. It was sent to the original receipeint by an active Apostle.
------------------Transcript--------------------------------------
In recent months I have heard here and there that the Apostle ministry is called into question and that a certain uncertainty exists about basic principles of our faith. Therefore, I was looking for a word giving me the opportunity of giving prominence once to the essentials of our faith. I served with the text
Preacher (Ecclesiastes) 3:14
"I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever, Nothing can
be added to it, and nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should
fear before Him."
In the context of this text, the author of this book (we think of Solomon although this is not quite sure) is contemplating on the godly order. In accordance with the way of thinking of that time his observations are focusing on the conformity of the natural laws he is confronted with in his earthly life. He comes to the conclusion that the godly orders are forever. Nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it.
We can confirm the truth of these words even in our days. As soon as man intervenes in the earthly creation, the godly order is substantially disturbed.
Here, we are focusing on the godly orders of the spiritual world. In the light of the New Testament reference is made to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Many a tempter has already been trying to add something, to see the Gospel very broadmindedly. In our time today extensive esoteric thought is being offered. A number of other doctrines are pretending that Jesus Christ be no longer the only way to redemption. In contrast to this, we find clear statements in the Holy Scriptures, such as for example in 1 John 4:3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God…", or in Acts 4:12: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
We shall add nothing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
----------------------------------------------Transcript paused--------------------------------------
Sounds great right! Well he went on to say:
------------------Transcript resumes----------------------------------------------
On the other side, attempts can be noticed to take something away from the Gospel of Jesus:
· The Apostle Ministry. The Lord Jesus expressly emphasised: As the Father has sent Me, I also send you (John 20:21); it must be indicated that this word has not exclusively been addressed to the Apostles, reference is rather made to the disciples. Based on parallel passages in the Scriptures, it is however our conviction of faith that in fact this refers to the Apostles.
· The dispensing of the Holy Spirit through Apostles. Above all, this is testified in Acts several times. I indicate to Acts 8:18 ff where reference is made to Simon who had practised sorcery. When this man saw that the Spirit was bestowed by the Apostles through laying on of hands, he wanted to buy this power. Peter emphatically rejected this. From this we can take: The gift of the Holy Spirit can only be bestowed by Apostles.
· The authority of the Apostle Ministry to forgive the sins. Here, reference must be made to the clear statement: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:23). I would like to draw the attention
once to the last part of this sentence: … if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. This means: Where the activity of Apostles is missing, there is no forgiveness of sins!
* The Return of Christ to take home His Bride. The Lord unambiguously said: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself… (John 14:3).
According to our understanding, these are benchmarks of the Gospel that cannot be taken away.
-------------------------------------------------------------End Transcript-----------------------------------------------------
In the NT there is reference to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I think that most other Christian denominations and non-denominational Christian churches have a completely different understanding of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Notice the key terms in the first three points:
The apostle ministry: not exclusively been addressed to the apostles.............based on parallel passages(???)...................our conviction of faith......in fact...(fact???)
The dispensing of the Holy Spirit through Apostles. ......in Acts several times.(twice).................from this we can take......only be bestowed by apostles.(????)
The authority of the Apostle Ministry to forgive the sins. .....if you retain the sins of any, they are retained, this means.....(again disciples) ....Where the activity of Apostles is missing, there is no forgiveness of sins! WOW!
Benchmarks of the Gospel! All of this right after he(CA Leber) said that: We shall add nothing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Seems to be a whole lot of conjecturing going on to me. ...our conviction of faith...from this we can take...this means...
Maybe things like this can be discussed with regards to guest inviting also. How do you explain the NAC understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to someone that actually reads the Bible? (Hervorhebung GG001) What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Aus dem NACboard
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GG001
Zu der Moeglichkeit, dass Historiker Archivmaterial der NAK verwenden koennten:
lost hat geschrieben:Oh c'mon now. How else could they ensure that history is remembered or written they way they want it done?Newton Javas hat geschrieben:Hypocrits!
What a joke!NAKI wants to hold outside historians to a standard they cannot even come close to meeting. Talk about stacking the deck!
NJ
Aus dem NACboard
Glossar: "stacking the deck": mit gezinkten Karten spielenkbb hat geschrieben:My take-
The archives (Zurich and Hamburg) which have never been clearly acknowledged as existing, do indeed exist, and may be catalogued.
Think about it "to determine whether sources are known which are relevant to conduct this project. "
Its not "search for material" rather "determine whether sources are known", i.e. check the catalogue.
So no one other than loyalist will ever have unrestricted access.
WHAT COULD THE CHURCH WANT TO HIDE? Unless there's something other than the true activity of the Holy Spirit thru the re-establishment of the Apostles ministry (outside of the CAC[oops]) that could be found there.
they hide more than the tell.
kbb
Aus dem NACboard
