Auf der anderen Seite des Grossen Teichs

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Im NACboard ist darueber zu lesen (private Meinungen; sie sind thematisch geordnet, nicht in der Reihenfolge, wie sie im NACboard stehen):

a) Uebersetzung: Die beauftragte Baufirma wurde nicht termingerecht fertig. JF hat die Fertigstellung uebernommen. Im NACboard wird OCS Builders --> Contact Us diese Firma ihm zugeschrieben.

Lost, HP's sources indicate that a paid non-NAC contractor was hired for this project (see HP's recent post in "Hush Puppies". After 15 months of thumb twiddling and pp pulling, JF and his minions had to step in 8 wks before dedication in order to accomplish a modern day miracle.
Glossar: JF = J. Fendt

b) Uebersetzung: Fendt hat anscheinend nach etlichen vorangegangenen Verschiebungen der Gemeinde ein persoenliches "Versprechen" gegeben, dass die Einweihung am 29. Juni stattfinden wuerde, "egal, ob die Fenster drin sind oder nicht".

Fendt told the congregation sometime in May, "windows or no windows we will have the dedication on June 29."

JF stepped in because he promised and gave the members his word that the dedication would be on June 29. This congregation has been waiting for over two years, maybe three that they would have a church.

I seem to recall that at first, this building was promised for last Christmas. It was postponed once, so what was so important about last Sunday that the dedication couldn't be delayed a few weeks until the building was actually ready?

Apostel Hammer hat den Einweihungsgottesdienst am 29. Juni gehalten. Ich sehe keinen Bericht und keine Bilder mehr auf der Gemeindeseite. Ist das nur bei mir so?

So aber hat man sich künstlich Ungelegenheiten und Anlass für Ärger geschaffen - aus meiner Sicht ohne Notwendigkeit.

Ohne Notwendigkeit? Aber tergram! Falls Verantwortliche der NAC in hoeheren Aemtern so das weltliche Gesetz ignoriert haben, kann es doch nur einen stichhaltigen Grund gegeben haben: goettliches Gesetz, das ueber dem weltlichen steht. Sonst haetten sie neben dem mutmasslichen Verstoss gegen weltliches Gesetz ausserdem gegen den 10. Glaubensartikel ihrer Kirche verstossen.

Article 10:
I believe that I am obliged to obey the worldly authorities provided no godly laws are thereby transgressed.

Ein gesetzestreues Verhalten muss man doch von s/einer Kirche erwarten?!

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Zum Thema "Veraenderungen" bzw. "Bleiben oder Gehen?":

OK, back to the real question. What can we do to encourage change? And to make those who are unaware of all that goes on to be aware?
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Inform and educate the youth - they are the future leaders of the church.
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Great idea except for one thing...................there are not too many of them around. And from those that are................they are born to "old school" parents.
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That would be why some of us need to STAY in the church and TEACH them differently, now wouldn't it? Subterfuge and counter-programming ....
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Not to be a dark cloud, but how are you going to accomplish this? Over the past week or so, we've seen just how quickly the hammer comes down on those who question NAC authority, let alone challenge it. How long do you think you would last once they discovered that you were teaching something contrary to the standard party line?
To quote the experiences of the author/former NAC Priest, Siegfried Dannwolf, whose Christ-centered preaching landed him in hot water: ...
And that was in Germany, where things are more lax than they are in North America!
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Aus dem NACboard. Kursivschrift von mir.

"Man" kennt Dannwolf in den USA. Ich bin erstaunt. Nicht ganz so erstaunlich mehr scheint mir inzwischen, dass es auch in der konservativeren NAC den ausdruecklichen Wunsch nach Veraenderungen gibt. Die durchdachten Kommentare u.a. von "Shaquille" fallen mir dabei ein.

Glossar:
subterfuge: 1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
2 : a deceptive device or stratagem

[tergram]

...Fendt hat anscheinend nach etlichen vorangegangenen Verschiebungen der Gemeinde ein persoenliches "Versprechen" gegeben, dass die Einweihung am 29. Juni stattfinden wuerde, "egal, ob die Fenster drin sind oder nicht".

Ach so. Warum setzt sich jemand so unter Zugzwang? Zu dumm, wenn man den Mund großspurig zu voll nimmt und dann nicht "liefern" kann.

Falls Verantwortliche der NAC in hoeheren Aemtern so das weltliche Gesetz ignoriert haben, kann es doch nur einen stichhaltigen Grund gegeben haben: Goettliches Gesetz, das ueber dem weltlichen steht.

Sir: Yes, Sir. *strammsteh* Es sei denn, Gott hätte seinen Willen zwischenzeitlich klammheimlich geändert und die Verantwortlichen der NAC hätten nix davon gemerkt. Soll ja schon mal vorgekommen sein.

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Das NACboard gewinnt etwas an Popularitaet: Statistik der letzten Zeit.

Diese Leser- und Beitragszahlen erscheinen relativ hoch, wenn man die Mitgliederzahlen in den USA betrachtet. Nach Schaetzungen der NACboard Leser sind die offiziellen Mitgliederzahlen zu hoch und reflektieren nicht die Zahl der wirklich "aktiven" NACler.

Does anyone know if it is still like that today? If you do not attend, but did not ask to be removed, do you still stay on the books? If so, then that 51,818 number is grossly inflated. I seem to remember years ago that many congregations had Sunday morning attendance of 50 percent or even less because of all the inactive members. With declining membership, I wonder what percent of the 51K is actually active and attends on a regular basis.

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Eine amerikanische Definition der "Wohlfuehlgemeinden".

Katherine writes:

Vapes inquires:

Could reform happen in the New Apsotolic Church under District Apostle Kolb....guess we're gonna have to wait and see

Read over the letter he sent to Gayle. Focus on the tone, the arrogance, the condescension. You don't have to wait and see. Your answer is there.

Hi Katherine,

I agree with you - the tone of Apostle L.R. Kolb's letter says much and others should take note of it - for it shows what lives in the depth of his soul. I believe that any change or reform will be only cosmetic - you know the 'makes you feel better' type of change.... changing a few things to make them seem new or modern and thus making members say wow! this is so much better than the old way... we are now modern.... therefore you now have a re-juvenated congregation (for how long?) that are willing to perform and invite based on a 'good feeling' - when in fact nothing has really changed at all! Also closing some small congregations to make a bigger congregation also helps with that 'good feeling' - more people in the congregation makes you feel better (the congregation only got bigger from closing other NAC congregations - no new members from outside the community - there is not really any new growth in the congregation - BUT the congreagtion got BIGGER and thus it makes you feel better).... and letting members make some decisions locally in their own congregation also makes the member feel like they now have power and can actually do something - you now have a positive member instead of a negative one...

Are theses changes good? Sure they are! But they are only cosmetic changes... no doctrine or real change! The 'good feeling' from these type of changes only last for a short time. So the member now says: "...gee i kinda like this 'modern congregation' concept - it makes me feel good and important and it is better than what we did before...'

So cosmetic changes are probably coming to all congregations in the usa... but in terms of real doctrine refrom/change... forget it.... as others have said 'the New Apostolic Church would no longer have a purpose to exist - The Apostles preparing The Bride of Christ - The Apostles forgving sins - The Apostles giving out the Holy Spirit thru laying on of Hands of a Living Apostle of Christ - The power of the Divine Service and the Importance of the 3 Sacraments - Service for the Departed (Realms of the Departed)' and the New Apostolic Church has recently said "Apostles are Necessary for Salvation"... so IMHO no real reform or doctrine reform is on the way.... only the cosmetic 'make you feel good' reform is happening.... Nothing else but.... cosmetic changes (putting on the lipstick and eye shadow) it does give you a better look on the outside.... but does nothing to change the inside roots (the doctrine) where the change needs to come from!

Aus dem NACboard

worauf "Newton Javas" berechtigterweise fragt:

For those who say the NAC will cease to exist if it changes her doctrine, I have this question:

How did the church exist before it changed the doctrine? I stated in another post that the young apostles need to capitalize on the old school swallow and follow diehards. If the DAP council votes to change the doctrine away from exclusivity, the old regime may bristle, but will follow their apostle to hell and back.

Just my .02

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IMHO...for those who believe in God, and all the spiritual implications that would include, I cannot understand how any foundation built upon lies, deceit, spiritual abuse, manipulation, unethical and questionable financial practices that the hierarchy refuses to disclose or discuss, etc. could ever be thought of as healthy let alone thrive. Why would God bless such an organization?

Can Bischoff be thought of as anything other than a false prophet that the NAC to this day refuses to acknowledge? Can God bless that? For those who have the courage to examine the history of the NAC, there is sufficient historical documentation to confirm that at the very least, the foundation is contaminated and corrupted by men. So again...why would God bless that?

Unless the foundation has been purified to its very core, I fail to understand how God could possibly bless such an organization. Why would He?

"Still Standing" im Nacboard.

Die reden nicht drum herum, die Amis.

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DAP Hebeisen will take over South East Asia:
http://www.nak.org/en/news/naci-news/article/15722/

What countries will be left with Canada?

Aus dem NACboard

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Abschiedsbrief von BezAp Freund / Erster Brief vom zukuenftigen BezAp Kolb: Click!

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Was ist das Resümee aus einer Amtszeit: dass nicht die Erfolge der Massstab sind, sondern wie wenig Schaden jemand angerichtet hat?

DAF' Legacy

hrldpotter wrote: ...I don't recall much of what Wagner did, good or bad. Kraus on the other hand I could give you volumes on, unfortunately, most of that I would consider bad.

So which is better, to have a minor or unmentionable legacy (ie Wagner) or to have a 'great' legacy (ie Kraus) which is overshadowed by the harm done rather than the good?

It speaks volumes when leaders are measured not by how much they accomplished but how little they hurt the church. That is what happens in an organization which lacks accountability. We have seen some spring to the defense of DAF, but it appears to be more a knee-jerk reaction to criticism of a church official than one based in substance.

The elimination of Sunday evening services was probably not an initiative of North American leadership; but even it it was, this is a superficial issue when considering the overall health and vitality of the church. Installing a program of financial accountability would have compelled the church to look long and hard about how donations are expended. I am certain it would have lead to a revamping of how the money is spent. Even the TB'ers would raise their horary heads when they see what percentage of income is spent on "events and travel" as versus church building maintenance and member oriented programs. If DAF had done just this one thing--make the church financially accountable--he would have established a legacy of setting the church on the right path.

Or, had DAF engaged in a constructive conversation over the 200+ suggestions made by the volunteer core. If he would have jumped on those suggestions perhaps we would have less dissolutioned servants today. Such action would have reflected a new leadership in tune with its volunteers and ready to help them in their local congregations. A leadership that believes in moving forward. Instead a couple fairly conservative changes were implemented and the bulk of the ideas ignored.

Alternatively, DAF could have turned back the rhetoric of exclusivity and lead the church to a more ecumenical view of the Christian community. Instead, servants were told of his concern that there is "too much Jesus" preached and not enough about apostles. Another opportunity missed; another step in the wrong direction.

I urge the "lurkers" out there to stop letting leadership get away with not leading. You know why Deaconess' questions are rarely answered? Because 1) leadership is not used to being questioned and 2) they can get away with ignoring challenges anyway. I think apostle Kolb is more responsive than any other NAC leader at that level of responsibility, so perhaps the church is finally going in the right direction. But for the church to arrest its free fall, local leaders need to press their cases to national leaders. They need to start demanding financial accountability, innovative changes at the local level, and an ecumenical outlook on the world.

Glossar: DAF = district apostle Freund
Aus dem NACboard

Der zukuenftige Bezirksapostel Kolb hat sich in der Vergangenheit etwas kommunikativer und empfaenglicher fuer Vorschlaege gezeigt, hofft "Shaquille" auch fuer die Zukunft. Er fordert auch die "stillen Leser", besonders die oertlichen Kirchenleiter, auf, sich an die Kirchenleitung zu wenden und Antworten einzufordern.

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Die Stadt Parsippany hat das vorlaeufige Abnahmezertifikat fuer das neue Kirchengebaeude der NAC Gemeinde erteilt! Ab jetzt koennen dort Gottesdienste auch legalerweise stattfinden. Ein Priester aus der Gemeinde schreibt:

Business commitments kept me from service tonight but I arrived home and got a call from my mom that we have received the TCO and will have service in our new church, legally, on Sunday.

It is easy to point fingers, out of anger, frustration, or misplaced blame.

love4nac- I am happy that you got some type of pleasure from pointing to me by name and the fact that you say others share the same misinformed view of the situation.

I am also happy- but not for blaming innocent parties- I am happy that we can now occupy our church legally and can rejoice in it.

Aus dem NACboard.

Leider wurde inzwischen auch dieser Priester aus der Gemeinde von anonymen Schreibern im NACboard beschuldigt, an diesem Debakel schuld zu sein, obwohl die NACboard Administratoren und Gayle Theilacker ausdruecklich darauf hingewiesen haben, dass niemand ausser Gayle selbst sich an die Baubehoerde gewandt hat.

Worin sie die eigentliche Ursache sieht und wen sie dafuer sowohl wegen deren fachlichen Kenntnisse als auch wegen deren Aufgaben in der Kirchenverwaltung in der Verantwortung sieht, schreibt Gayle hier:

Hello love4nac.

The congregation of Parsippany should not have occupied the building prior to receiving a T.C.O. To occupy the building before receiving city approval was illegal. Bishop Fendt, as a building contractor, and Apostle Orlofski, as head of the National Building Office, would have known this. They made a conscious decision to break the law, acting as agents of the National Organization of the New Apostolic Church of North America. In addition, Apostle Hammer, after being notified and fined by the Township of Parisppany, made the conscious decision to continue holding services at the site.

You should be asking your leaders why they have so little regard for the laws of the community... and why they felt the need to deceive the congregation and its community by opening the building for use without city approval.

I don't know if the few posters that have jumped all over everyone who had expressed disappointment and lodged complaints represent the majority of the congregation... but if they do.... well.... it hurts that that nature and lack of ethics exist in my brothers and sisters. Why wouldn't the congregation want to do things the right way? This truly baffles me.

Sollte ich einmal in diese Gemeinde kommen, werde ich die Erinnerung an diese Einweihung bestimmt nicht verdraengen koennen. Wie sich das wohl in der Gemeindechronik spaeter liest?