Auf der anderen Seite des Grossen Teichs

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March 1, 2010

Dear Chief Apostle Leber:

The February 2010 issue of the Our Family contains a transcript of the Divine Service which you conducted in Bissau on October 25, 2009. You are quoted:

Chief Apostle Leber:

"Next Sunday there will again be a service for the departed. We pray that many will find their way to the Lord on that occasion. Think of your ancestors. Think of the people you knew. Think of the people who have helped you, have been kind to you in life. Many have gone into the beyond in an unredeemed state. We pray that they allow the love of God to touch them. If these souls allow themselves to be touched, faith will grow and they will also be prepared to receive the sacraments.

You can rest assured that they watch us. When they see that our faith creates joy, when they perceive the power contained in our faith, then the longing will also grow within them to join us and to become part of God's people. Let us be examples in this, and let us do our part through our prayers so that faith can also be awakened in the beyond, and that many will also be able to recognise this path of salvation and blessing and walk upon it. Let us make use of the time before next Sunday. I advise you to pray for those who watch us from the beyond. Let us intercede warmly for them so that they can grasp faith and salvation in Christ."

Which scripture substantiates the claim that souls in the beyond "watch us"? If there is no scriptural justification, shouldn't these statements be publicly retracted or modified to reflect that this is your own personal belief?

Sincerely,

Gayle Theilacker
Los Angeles Central Congregation

Aus dem NACboard

"...to reflect that this is your own personal belief?" Vielleicht handelt es sich auch einfach eine Wiederholung von Aussagen, die hier und da schon frueher immer wieder gemacht wurden.

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eyes open

Interesting how folks from vastly varied geographic regions, congregations, districts and backgrounds independently come to the same conclusion regarding the NAC’s resemblance to cult status. In most cases it seems all it took was a step back to reexamine things from a new perspective.

I guess we have the NACBoard to thank for this, a place to communicate with others in the same boat and have access to information formerly unavailable and having TBers around to remind us doesn’t hurt either. For me I had already taken that step back before finding this board and had gone through the process of TB …… atheist, without pausing to look at the cult aspect. When I came here and heard of the Botscraft for the fist time (that letter wasn’t in our family bible) (1), I was amazed, confused and dumbfounded. I remember reading Kraus’s ‘shut up and do what you’re told’ letter (2) and thinking ‘wow a powerful man of god getting tough to get his house in order’. When I reread it here I was like “WHAT???” and gave my head a shake. When watching the service videos of services I actually attended I scream “WHAT???” and give my head a shake. Why did I not do that then and run? Something had to happen to make me take that step back and scratch my head. Seems like that is happening to more and more nacs.

Aus dem NACboard

Das Schrumpfen der Mitgliederzahlen laesst sich natuerlich auch durch demographische Faktoren erklaeren.

(1) Anmerkung: Die Apostel John P. Fendt und Ewald Hiby teilten die sogenannte "Botschaft" Johann Gottfried Bischoffs 1955 den Mitgliedern der NAC USA und CDN in einem Brief mit, verbunden mit der Empfehlung, den Brief in die Familienbibel zu legen: "Weil unsere gesamte Zukunft sowohl hier auf Erden wie auch in der Ewigkeit von dieser Botschaft abhaengt, sollte ein Exemplar [des Briefs] in jedem Haushalt aufbewahrt werden und in die Familienbibel gelegt werden, und zwar damit es immer wieder gelesen wird und immer vor uns steht."
Auf den Fund dieses Briefs in ihren Bibeln bezogen sich Schreiber im NACboard schon frueher.

(2) http://nacboard.yuku.com/topic/1361; siehe auch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kraus_(minister)

[shalom]

Zu Beginn des Gottesdienstes verlas unser Bezirksapostel das Bibelwort: „Und fürchtet euch nicht vor denen, die den Leib töten, doch die Seele nicht töten können; fürchtet euch aber viel mehr vor dem, der Leib und Seele verderben kann ….“ aus Matthäus 10, Vers 28.

- Wie siehst Du den Apostel?
- Ist der Vorsteher der Chef der Gemeinde?
- Ist der Jugendbeauftrage der Animateur?
- Oder sind die Amtsträger Werkzeuge des Herrn und Segensträger, die die Liebe in die Gemeinde tragen?
- Gottes Segen vermittelt Zuversicht und Freude. Die Seelen erhalten den Frieden des Allerhöchsten, den der Bezirksapostel den Geschwistern kraft seines Amtes übermittelte.
- Wir wollen uns heute nicht das Vertrauen in die von Gott gesandten Boten nehmen lassen… .

Liegt die Gewichtung unserer Lebensgestaltung bei den materiellen Gütern oder steht bei uns das Streben nach dem ewigen Leben im Vordergrund?

Apostel Drave unterstrich den hohen Wert des Gottesdienstes und der persönlichen Zwiesprache mit Gott. Dies sei „bahnbrechend“.

Werte glücksstädtischen Glücksritter, liebe Edelschwestern sowie all ihr Bahn-, Wort-, Botschafts- und BrotbrecherInnen,

bereits schon am 14. Februar hatte der Stammapostelamtsinhaber ( Matthäus 10, aus Vers 28) als bahnbrechendes „Bibelwort“ (ugs „Textwort“) für die Elfenbeinküste verwendet .

In Anbetracht der bahnbrechenden Schwerpunkte des neuapostolischen Bezirksapostelamtskörpers ist die Frage nach der Gewichtung deren Glaubenslebensgestaltung schon brisant. Der neue Glaube (DNG) wird verschleppt, während den materiellen Seiten des wiederbesetzten Aposteltums (Infoabend, Unternehmerforum, EJT, Sterkrade, Na-also, I-Phone, Güldene Besen, Futuro®, Service-Aktiengesellschaften, Sponsoring, Sterbevereine …) Priorität eingeräumt wird.

- Apostelamtsinhaber zeigen sich heute so: Im Business glaubenskommerziell – im Glauben evolutionär unschlüssig un(theo)logisch.
- Na-türlich Ist der Vorsteher nicht der Chef der Gemeinde – er ist kirchenrechtlich unselbständig. Der Chef ist der Bezirksapostel! Das hätte Schumacher nach Blankenese eigentlich noch wissen sollen!
- Ist der Jugendbeauftrage der Animateur? – Ja! Daran hat sich nichts geändert!
- Na-türlich sind unsere neuapostolischen Amtsträger Werkzeuge des Herrn und Segensträger, die in dieser Kernkompetenz sogar ihren andersgläubigen Kollegen im Geiste die Hand reichen und auch deren Amtsführung mit Gebet begleiten, damit der ewige Gott auch den Geistlichen anderer Religionen in der Erfüllung deren Aufgaben allezeit das erforderliche Maß an Weisheit, Mut und Kraft schenkt (Finanzapostel Koberstein gratuliert).
- Gottes Segen vermittelt Zuversicht und Freude. Die Seelen erhalten den Frieden des Allerhöchsten, den der Bezirksapostel den Geschwistern kraft seines Amtes übermittelt.

Daher soll sich nur niemand das Vertrauen in die von Gott gesandten Boten nehmen lassen… .

shalom

[shalom]

Bezirksapostelbesuch im United Kingdom

Am Samstag, dem 27. Februar, hielt der Bezirksapostel im St. Peter's House einen Gottesdienst für 221 Geschwister. Eingeladen war ein Teil des neu gegründeten Bezirkes England Nordost. Der Bezirksapostel verwendete das Wort aus Matthäus 10, 28: "Und fürchtet euch nicht vor denen, die den Leib töten, doch die Seele nicht töten können; fürchtet euch aber vielmehr vor dem, der Leib und Seele verderben kann..."

Bezogen auf die im Flugverkehr übliche Abkürzung für den Flughafen Manchester: MAN, verwies der Bezirksapostel auf die kleine Gemeinde Isle of Man. Der anwesende Vorsteher, Priester Raymond Gillis, diente u.a. mit… .

Der Bezirksapostel und der Apostel traten am Montag, dem 1. März, ihre Heimreise nach Deutschland an.

Werte Neuapostolismen and women,

Bereits am Tuesday, den 17 th November 2009 hatte Dap. Shoe- and Peacemakers Gebietskirchenkonföderation Norddeutschland informiert, dass in deren Kronkolonie [-> Isle of man] („Isle of Man Congregation”) die Gemeinde “of 5 members faithfully for over 30 years by their rector Priest R. G.” versorgt wird.

Ob allerdings diese Mikro-Gemeinden die neue Aposteloptimierte Performance (Standards) für das Überleben europäisch-neuapostolischer Standorte erfüllen können, sehe ich unter dem wirtschaftsapostolischen Wirken der Zentrale massiv in Frage gestellt (was gehört zur Kernkompetenz eines Apostels, einer seiner Gemeinden)?

Die Zukunftskommission hat die „Soll-Situation“ „einer objektiv wünschbaren „zukunftsfesten“ Gemeinde“ erfasst und ist jetzt europaweit drauf und dran, die noch existierenden / vegetierenden Gemeinden zu kontrollieren (abzugleichen), wie weit diese von dem na-amtlich temporär kreierten Soll entfernt sind. So lässt sich wenigstens der neuapostolische Immobilienmarkt längerfristig planen.

Bereits schon am 14. Februar hatte der Stammapostelamtsinhaber ( Matthäus 10, aus Vers 28) als „Bibelwort“ (ugs „Textwort“) für die Elfenbeinküste verwendet. Danach war in Glückstadt bereits am 21.02.2010 vom Glücksritter (Dap. Shoemaker) der Worttext des Textwortes als sog. „Bibelwort“ wiederaufgearbeitet worden. So dürfte der Job auch für alternde Gebietskirchenpräsidenten nicht zu anstrengend werden .

Immer diese Sach- und Lachzwaenge…

With loving greetings your ad-hoc-reporter – shalom

[GG001]

One Sunday morning, a pastor decided to do something a little different.
He said 'Today, in church, I am going to say a single word and you are going
to help me preach. Whatever single word I say, I want you to sing whatever
Hymn that comes to your mind.

The pastor shouted out 'CROSS.'

Immediately the congregation started singing in unison, 'THE OLD RUGGED
CROSS.'

The pastor hollered out 'GRACE.' The congregation began to sing 'AMAZING
GRACE, how sweet the sound.'

The pastor said 'POWER' The congregation sang 'THERE IS POWER IN THE BLOOD.'

The Pastor said 'SEX' The congregation fell into total silence.

Everyone was in shock. They all nervously began to look around at each other
afraid to say anything.

Then all of a sudden, way from in the back of the church, a little old 87
year old grandmother stood up and began to sing 'Precious MEMORIES.'

[shalom]

Werte DiskursteilnehmerInnen,

die Vorschau auf den Kalender unseres Stammapostels zeigt eine große Lücke zwischen seiner Einladung 2010 von Dap Anderson nach Australien / Ozeanien: 02.04. Auckland, New Zealand; 04.04. Melbourne, Australia; 06.04. Perth, Australia und jener des Gebietskirchenpräsidenten Ehrich am 02.05. nach Heidenheim, Deutschland (Stammapostelkalender) .

Die News von Nacorg geben sich sehr wortkarg über die Stammapostelstippvisite auf die andere Seite der Welt und erzählen immer noch was von Ostern. Doch auch die (Australia District News) scheinen in der “December 2009 Edition“ versackt zu sein. Eine „Message” from District Apostle Andersen erzählt was von dessen visits to Beenleigh and Canberra sowie den 25th Anniversary celebrations in Popendetta PNG. Auch die „Youth Conventions” in QLD, WA & NZ sowie die “Special celebrations” finden eingehende Würdigung durch die Würdenträger.

Weder werden Andersons märchenhafte Reise nach Europa zu seinem Freund Armin, noch der postwendende Gegenbesuch Wilhlems I. nach Neuseeland und Australien thematisiert.

So ein Fluch der Karibik oder hat gar der Tasmanische Teufel seine Finger im Spiel? Besucht der Stammapostel so kurz nach Ostern evtl. gar den „Eiers Rock“? Oder interessieren ihn die "Paradiesvögel"? Vielleicht will er kurz vor seinem Besuch in der „Kult-Urhauptstadt“ auch einmal erkunden, was es mit dem ("Australopithecus sediba") auf sich hat. Handelt es dabei nur um eine „Vormenschen-Art“, die für den Gott der neuapostolischen Entschlafenengottesdienste ohne Relevanz zu sein hat, oder doch schon um beseelte Ur-Aborigines aus dem Stammapostelbaum der stammapostelolisch fortgeschrittenen Erkenntnis?

Hoffentlich taucht der Stammapostelamtsinhaber rechtzeitig im Mai wieder aus der na-amtlichen Versenkung (Verflachung?) auf. Die HeidenheimerInnen wollen auf alle Fälle ihre Mukis spielen lassen und bekommen evtl. gar vom Stammapostel ein Didgeridoo mitgebracht? .

Noch ein abschließender Ratschlag: „Die Heilige Schrift sieht den Menschen grundsätzlich als ein mit einer unsterblichen Seele ausgestattetes Wesen an. Der Zeitpunkt, wann die ersten mit einer Seele ausgestatteten Menschen auftraten, lässt sich wissenschaftlich nicht bestimmen, denn die Seele als das von Gott gegebene unsterbliche Leben ist wissenschaftlicher Forschung nicht zugänglich. Die menschenähnlichen Vorformen, die es zuvor gegeben haben mag, waren also nicht mit einer unsterblichen Seele ausgestattet“ (Stammapostelbaum der Erkenntnis) .

Die Fragen, die der Stammapostelamtsinhaber über die menschenähnlichen Vor- oder Urformen angeschnitten hat, sind für die Erreichung des na-amtlichen Glaubenszieles im dies- und im Jenseits überhaupt nicht entscheidend. Aber die BaVi-Apostel müssen einen klaren „Kult-Ur-Standpunkt“ vertreten. So mag auch dieser Bericht selbstbildhafte Elemente enthalten, ich rate aber dazu, nicht zu sehr zu analysieren, was wörtlich und was bildhaft zu verstehen ist. Das führt Neuapostolismen im BaVi-Glauben nicht weiter.

shalom

[GG001]

Questions and Answers

It seems that I was the only one that submitted questions for the Town Hall meeting. The District Apostle set aside a half hour of the meeting to answer them. Following are SUMMARIES of his responses and some of the discussions triggered by the questions and his responses:


Q: "Suffer the Little Children to Come Unto Me": Can each service include a child-oriented message for the children in the congregation? I have seen this practice in several different denominations at the commencement of their services, often with the children coming forward for their personal "sermon" that frequently includes visual aids. This practice acknowledges that the children are indeed a vital part of the congregation and that ministering to them in each service is just as important as ministering to the adults.... which would reflect a true community spirit.

A: The District Apostle approved of the idea of presenting a special message to the children during Sunday morning services. However, he clarified that if a congregation were to do so, that it should be done well. He mentioned that in many congregations on Wednesdays they already have a separate service/activity for the children. It was nice that in the District Service that District Apostle Kolb conducted Sunday morning, he already caught the children's attention by specifically asking them to listen as he shared a story that they could identify with.



Q. Rather than waiting for Confirmation to receive a Bible from the church, can a special ceremony be established for Sunday School students to receive their first Bible from the congregation when they are 7 or 8? This "celebration" could include a special message regarding the importance of God's Word, and the value the Bible will have in their future lives. This practice would also affirm that the NAC is a Bible-based church.

A. The District Apostle mentioned that this past Christmas there were already age-appropriate Bibles presented to Sunday School children. He responded to the question that if a congregation wished to do a special presentation of the Bibles to Sunday School children, that it would be o.k.



Q. Based on a response from District Apostle Kolb, women and children can be utilized for ushering in congregations that don't have enough deacons to fill that role. Is this only to be an exception, or is it permissable to regularly engage women and children in more visible roles in the congregations by ushering... even in congregations that have many deacons? Today's society expects women to play significant roles in organizations. It is important for guests to see women participating in more "visible" roles in the congregation (greeting and ushering)... if the church is indeed interested in being perceived as non-discriminatory.

A. The District Apostle initially confirmed that he preferred deacons to usher for communion as he didn't want to take away some of their responsibilities, however in situations where there weren't enough deacons to usher, that it would be o.k. for women to do so. Following his initial response, an interesting discussion followed during the meeting. It was mentioned that in one congregation that had several deacons, they already were utilizing women and Sunday School children to usher. A deacon from that congregation stood up and said that he didn't think any of the deacons in his congregation would have a problem continuing to allow women and Sunday School children to usher... that he wouldn't feel gipped (my words). Following the discussion, I was left with the impression that this is something for each congregation to decide...



Q. What is the Biblical justification for the church altar being utilized as a pulpit for services? Can ministers be given the freedom to preach in front of the altar if they feel compelled to do so?

A. The response to this question was a fairly brief "no".



Q. The Catholic Church, which is very conservative, has begun utilizing women in serving of communion in various parishes. Is this a role that can also be implemented in the New Apostolic Church?

A. The District Apostle confirmed that he noticed women serving communion at a recent Catholic funeral that he attended. His response to the question was "no".


Q. Can women and children participate in the divine services by reading the textword?

A. The District Apostle stated that in the upcoming Pentecost service several changes in the liturgy will be announced. One of the changes can be incorporated into the services beginning during the Advent season. He said that beginning at that time, it would be acceptable for women, children, or brothers to do scriptural readings during services. Based on the DA's response, it seemed that this practice is intended for special services... but I think more details will be shared at Pentecost.



Q. What explanation was given for changing the NAC Creed under Bischoff to claim that one received the Holy Spirit at the time of Holy Sealing, rather than at the time of Baptism?

A. The District Apostle confirmed that the creed was changed under Bischoff, but he didn't know what explanation was given for the change at that time. He said that he would have to research that.


Q. Why must brothers that aren't serving continue to sit in the altar area during transmission services? This is an archaic practice that elevates and places the ministers on a pedestal; is a distraction; and is very odd for guests to see a sea of black-suited men surrounding the altar. Certainly, they would probably feel a closer connection and pay better attention to the "word" if they could also be engaged by the officiant's facial expressions.

A. The District Apostle said he noticed in some services that members' attention seemed to be drawn to what was going on behind him... he wondered what was going on. He agreed that the brothers didn't need to sit behind the altar.



Q. Why do administration brothers continue to wear black and white? This ''uniform" is old-fashioned and an oddity in today's Christian Community.

A. Based on his response it seems that black and white is here to stay. However, there was discussion that followed in which the point was brought up about AB's that sing in the choir on Wednesday evenings... that it looked odd to see all the women in the choir not in black and white, and the ABs all in black and white. The DA was asked if it would be ok if brothers that weren't scheduled to serve forgo wearing black and white. Someone then shared a concern that if the regular officiant didn't show, the back-up then wouldn't be in black and white. Perhaps lacnac can fill in here, but it seemed this question wasn't resolved in the discussion...


Q. As "pastor" is considered an important ministry in the Bible, why is the rector office only a commission, yet a District Evangelist (which is not a ministry found in the Bible) an ordination? As teachers are also mentioned as a ministry, why aren't they ordained... or at the very least, shouldn't Sunday School teachers be commissioned?

A. The DA said that there is presently discussion in NAKI regarding commissions and ordinations for the various ministries in the NAC. He agreed that it would be nice if Sunday School teachers, choir members/directors, etc. received some sort of acknowledgment, blessing, or commission when they undertake that new role and that he would share that idea with NAKI.


Q. What is the Biblical justification for the ranking of ministries (steps up a ladder...other than apostles) rather than viewing them each as unique and vital ministries? Why must the "highest ranking" minister open and close a service? This "rule" gives the impression that our church believes that the Holy Spirit is less inspiring or less effective in lower-ranking ministers.

A. The District Apostle shared that someone from outside of the church had observed that there were 13 tiers/ranks of ministries in the NAC. He said that each ministry should be viewed as unique and not a step-up a ladder. He said that there were efforts being made in compressing/flattening this "ranking".... I don't recall him specifically addressing my question re. the highest ranking officiant present opening and closing a service....



Q. Will questions and answers from the various Town Hall meetings throughout the country be shared so that all can benefit?

A. He said that they haven't really been recording the Town Hall meetings, and he wasn't certain that all areas would benefit from the discussion that takes place regionally... as much of the discussions are area specific. However, it seemed he would entertain that idea.




Q. Rather than singing 5 verses of an opening hymn, can congregations choose to sing 1 or 2 relevant verses of several songs?

A. The District Apostle said that he feels it is important to sing all of the verses as they often are needed to tell the whole story.


Q. The New Apostolic Church was much more progressive with regard to the role of women in the church during the early 1900s as it had a deaconess ministry. What explanation was given for the elimination of the deaconness ministry in the NAC under Chief Apostle Bischoff?


A. The District Apostle confirmed that there was a deaconess ministry in the NAC. He said that he didn't know what explanation was given for the elimination of that ministry, and that he would have to research that. I mentioned in the discussion that during an interview with Chief Apostle Leber, he stated that resistance to women receiving ministerial roles in the NAC was not from Europe, but rather North America, Africa, etc. The DA immediately responded that the resistance wasn't from his part of North America....

Discussion about women's roles in our church followed. One woman shared that there were MANY opportunities for women in our church, that she didn't feel discrimination. A brother in the meeting asked for a show of hands of women that would accept a ministerial role in the church. I think about a half dozen women raised their hands. The point was raised that in today's society it is odd for women to walk into our church and not see women in visible leadership roles... that it is the norm/expected in today's society for women to hold responsible positions. The District Apostle said that women in our church can have any role except serving at the altar. I asked what women were on the project groups for his upcoming grief counseling, marriage counseling, powerful sermon programs. I said that women listen to sermons and that they all enjoy sharing their opinions. He didn't say that there were women in these groups...


Q. What are the proposed changes to the Church's constitution that will be voted on at the Detroit Synod? Will provisions for reporting of assets, income, and expenditures at the close of each year to the rectors once more be included in the Constitution? Why weren't the rectors given information of how the assets were divided between the U.S. and Canada when they officially separated? Will voting be by ballot at this Synod? Why aren't the trustees nominated and elected by the Synod, rather than appointed by the District Apostle?

A. The District Apostle said that the plan is to bring the constitution more into alignment with NAKI's constitution. He stated that the current constitution doesn't have checks and balances and that the District Apostle has total control. He said that the constitution needs safeguards to ensure protection if for some reason he were to go nuts the next day. He stated that the Synod would be presented with the existing constitution as well as the new one for comparison, and that discussion of the changes/explanations will take place at the meeting. He didn't address the other portion of those questions that I recall.



Q. Why aren't agendas of upcoming seminars and discussions made available beforehand? Agendas give participants the opportunity to better formulate their questions or commentary, and generally make meetings much more productive.

A. He said he didn't know why, but he seemed to agree that it might be something that they could do.



Q. Questions were raised at the last district meeting held in February . Will District Apostle Kolb be responding to those questions during our Town Hall meeting, or instead in a written reply?

A. The District Apostle stated that questions weren't forwarded to him from our previous AB & Wives' meeting.


The District Apostle did not read or respond to my question regarding our church's current policy regarding ministerial roles of homosexuals. It's possible that he had not received the question before he left for California.

Das Thema und die Diskussion sind unter Questions for Town Hall meeting zu finden

[GG001]

God has changed His mind

Click!

[GG001]

Eigentlich passt dieser Beitrag in die Reihe "Apostolisch" oder eine entsprechende Diskussion ueber die Lehre der NAK zur Suendenvergebung. Da er aber in Englisch geschrieben ist, setzte ich ihn hier ein.

Leser der deutschen Kirchenveroeffentlichungen koennen sich den Text leicht zusammenreimen, auch wenn sie nicht so gut Englisch koennen.

Yes TT he is much better off than I was at his age. At his age I think I knew the Beatitudes, the Lord's prayer, and many of the children's stories, but never really even considered the doctrine or theology.

The NAC's take on forgiveness is still confusing to me. When you read the Doctrine and Knowledge articles on forgiveness in past OF articles they say some specific things. The first part explained what sin is and that it is against God and that it is available because of the sacrifice of Jesus. It went on to say that our belief in Him is the basis for our forgiveness.

"whoever believes in salvation as made accessible by Jesus Christ, personified in Him as it is, will be able to find in Him redemption from sin and the consequences of sin."

So far so good. The second part states that God is the One that forgives sin. It goes on to state some "preconditions for forgiveness". First is the belief in Jesus. No problem there but, this is where it starts to get sticky. Second, the apostles are authorised to forgive sins in His name. So, are they now doing the forgiving, "in His name"? Has God now been relieved of that task? The article goes on to ask:

"What else is require, apart from belief in Jesus and accepting His ambassadors, if we are to receive grace and the forgiveness of sins?"

We must accept the apostles to receive grace? and forgiveness?

What else does the article say is required? It goes on to say that we must submit ourselves to the "living word of the sermon" which gives us the knowledge of our sins and the need for grace. It continues with the need to confess our sins to God, which is done by saying the Lord's prayer in divine service. The article goes on to state that we must repent and forive those that have sinned against us. The last "precondition" is that the forgiveness of sins must be proclaimed, which is done in the divine service as the absolution. From this we can conclude that mankind's forgiveness is dependant upon:

1. Belief in Jesus as the Redeemer
2. Acceptance of the apostles as those authorized to forgive sins in His name
3. Our attendance to divine services for learning of our sin and need for grace
4. Repeating the Lord's prayer to confess our sins
5. Our repenting and forgiving those that sinned against us
6. The announcing of forgiveness as pronounced by the absolution in divine service

If any of these are missed or omitted is there still a way for God to forgive? I hope so!

Aus dem NACboard

Weiterfuehrende Lektuere in diesem Zusammenhang ist auch die Meinung von Herrn Dr. Leber zum Heil und Apostelamt. In den folgenden Zitaten "erlautert er seine Sicht":

Ich will nun im Folgenden zusammenhängend meine Sicht erläutern.
Am deutlichsten ist die Vollmacht zur Sündenvergebung in Johannes 20,23 formuliert: ...
Eine gewisse Parallelität besteht zu Matthäus 18,18: ...
Man kann zwar manches Mal, wenn von den Jüngern die Rede ist, anhand von Parallelstellen folgern, dass eigentlich die Apostel gemeint sind; aber gerade an diesen zentralen Stellen lässt sich das nicht festmachen.
Die andere Auffassung geht davon aus, dass es hier um eine spezielle Amtsvollmacht geht. Die Neuapostolische Kirche vertritt die letztgenannte Deutung.
Meine Sicht ist die folgende: ...
Dann genügte allein schon die Berufung auf das Opfer Christi. Kann der Herr das hier gemeint haben?
Meines Erachtens wird also die Auffassung, dass es keiner ausdrücklichen Sündenvergebung bedarf, hier nicht gestützt. Darum kann man sehr wohl die zweite Auffassung vertreten, ...
Somit wird die Auffassung unserer Kirche unterstrichen.
Man kann also daraus folgern, dass die Sündenvergebung nur aus der Kraft des Heiligen Geistes heraus möglich ist. Die Kraft des Heiligen Geistes ist aber gewiss besonders im Apostelamt konzentriert.

Nun stellt sich natürlich die Frage, was ist mit all den Menschen um uns, die nie die Freisprache durch einen Apostel oder einen von ihm Bevollmächtigten erlebt haben?

Ich muss darauf sagen: Ich weiß es nicht.

Nach unserem Glauben können auch in den Jenseitsbereichen noch die Sünden vergeben werden.
Kann man daraus vielleicht den Schluss ziehen, dass auch heute der Herr über die Sünden ernsthafter Christen hinwegsieht, so sie in aufrichtiger Reue stehen und bemüht sind, nach seinem Willen zu handeln?
Ich kann darauf keine abschließende Antwort geben.

Nun, das waren doch deutliche Antworten.

Anscheinend wurden manche der Unklarheiten, die Herrn Dr. Leber im Oktober 2007 noch beschaeftigt haben, inzwischen durch die intensive Arbeit am Katechismus beseitigt. Die theologische Redaktion der UF laesst ja anscheinend die Leser schon etwas an den Erkenntnissen teilhaben.

Damit kein falscher Eindruck aufkommt: ich finde eine ehrliche Antwort wie "ich weiss es nicht" oder "ich habe keine endgueltige Antwort" um vieles besser und respektabler als eine windige Konstruktion.

Das Umkehrproblem ist, eine die Konstruktion der NAK Lehre durch fundierte Antworten zu erklaeren.

[GG001]

I really need to organize info

Regarding the "failure" of Bischoff's message upon his death in 1960.

I had a rare chance to discuss church with an uncle recently. At first, he didn't get my reference to failure in 1960.
His view point was the failure was apparent on Jan 1, 1960, just as the new year began.
Somewhere on NACBoard (I must find this), the prophecy/vision/dream regarding a train leaving the station with the number 195? has been told. Given Bischoff's age, it was interpreted that the DoFR would be PRIOR to 1960.
This is what my uncle said was "pounded" into him, with increasing fervor as the decade (1950) progressed. So when 1959 ended, THAT signaled the error of the prophecy(s).

He also mentioned that within his recollection, Sunday a.m. services didn't focus so much on this, rather the Sunday p.m. services is when der Botschaft was often a focus, clearly as the p.m. group was your truly faithful.

I'd really like to hear any other first-hand recollections. If you want, email me.

regards

kbb

Aus dem NACboard

"kbb" hat mit einem Onkel gesprochen, der den offensichtlichen Irrtum der Botschaft nicht am Todestag Bischoffs im Juli 1960, sondern schon am Jahreswechsel 1959 / 1960 festmachte. In den 50er Jahren hoerte man von einer Vision, in der ein Eisenbahnzug beim Verlassen des Bahnhofs gesehen wurde, dessen Nummer 195? war. Man hat diese Vision mit dem Kommen Jesu in diesem Jahrzehnt erklaert und gegen Ende des Jahrzehnts mit zunehmender Dringlichkeit gepredigt, erzaehlte der Onkel.

Vielleicht erinnert sich der eine oder andere noch an aehnliche Begebenheiten; "kbb" ist der "NACboard Historiker", der u.a. auch solche Berichte sammelt, vornehmlich aber sonstige NAK-Veroeffentlichungen. Deswegen nimmt er gerne Material zur Entwicklung und Geschichte der NAK aus frueherer Zeit entgegen:

Contact me via NACBoard or email- kbb420 at gmail.com (switch "at" for a "@")- if you'd care to share New Apostolic Church documents/letters/booklets/books. If posted, credit freely given if desired. Originals will be returned if desired, all shipping at my cost.

Der Onkel erinnert sich uebrigens, dass die Botschaft weniger im Gottesdienst am Sonntag Morgen, sondern mehr am Nachmittag eine Rolle spielte. Seiner Meinung nach vielleicht, weil am Nachmittag auf jeden Fall die treuesten NAKler anwesend waren? Der Eindruck mag richtig sein, aber "wir wissen es nicht". Mir erscheint die Interpretation zweifelhaft, denn damals war doch die Furcht, mit dem mutwilligen Versaeumen eines Gottesdienstes eine Suende zu begehen, auch bei den nicht so 100%-igen gegenwaertig.

Diese Geschichte mit dem "Brautzug" ist mir von irgendwo her bekannt, ich weiss aber nicht mehr, ob ich sie im NACboard einmal gelesen habe. Der Begriff "Brautzug" wurde aber mindestens noch in den 90er Jahren verwendet und mit dem Bild eines Eisenbahnzugs illustriert.

Chor bitte: "Nun ruestet die Braut sich, zur Heimat zu ziehen, zur himmlischen Heimat ..."